our struggle.” He said that the revolution had been particularly careful not to present itself to the Cuban and other people as an enemy of religion. “Because, if that had occurred, we would have been doing the reaction a favor, cooperating with the exploiters not only the ones in Cuba but the exploiters in all the rest of Latin America, as well.” He said that he’d often been asked, “Why must the ideas of social justice clash with religious beliefs? Why must they clash with Christianity?” He replied by saying, “I’m rather well versed in Christian principles and in Christ’s teachings. I believe that Christ was a great revolutionary. That’s what I believe. His entire doctrine was devoted to the humble, the poor; his doctrine was devoted to fighting against abuse, injustice, and the degradation of human beings. I’d say there’s a lot in common between the spirit and essence of his teachings and socialism.” He also went back to the theme of the alliance between Christians and revolutionaries, saying, “There are no contradictions between the aims of religion and those of socialism. There aren’t any. I was saying that we should form an alliance but not a tactical one.” Then, recalling his trip to Chile, he added, “They asked me if it was to be a tactical or a strategic alliance. I said it should be a strategic alliance between religion and socialism, between religion and revolution.”
Recalling those statements, I talked to Fidel about the evolution of the Christian base communities and about how the long-suffering believers’ faith, meditation on the Word of God, and participation in the Sacraments gave them the energy they needed to struggle for a better life. I felt that Latin America was divided not into Christians and Marxists but into revolutionaries and allies of the forces of oppression. Many communist parties had made the mistake of professing an academic atheism which estranged them from the faithful poor. No alliance could be maintained on the basis of theoretical principles and bookish discussions. Liberating practice was the ground on which Christian militants and Marxist militants would meet or not — since, just as there are many Christians who defend the interests of capital, there are also many who claim to be communists who never divorce themselves from the bourgeoisie.
Moreover, as a man of the church, I was particularly interested in the Catholic church in Cuba. What we said with regard to this specific topic is contained in the interview that is published here. Many of the topics that were discussed in the Managua talks are dealt with again in this interview. I have retained the impression that, as an individual, Fidel is a frank, sensitive person, someone you can ask any kind of question and even disagree with. Even though he says that he never had any real religious faith, he wasn’t totally immune to his training in Catholic schools, which was preceded by his coming from a Christian family.
Five days after our dialogue in Sergio Ramírez’s home, during a meeting I attended with some Nicaraguan priests and nuns, Fidel repeated the basic ideas he had defended in Chile and stressed in Jamaica. This group of Christians embodied an advance that Fidel himself hadn’t foreseen. The Sandinista revolution was the work of a traditionally religious people and had the blessing of the episcopate. It was the first time in history that Christians, motivated by their own faith, had participated actively in an insurrectional process with the support of their pastors. The Nicaraguan clergy insisted that this wasn’t a strategic alliance. There was unity between Christians and Marxists, among all the people. The comandante of the Cuban revolution responded that he had the “impression that the Bible has very revolutionary content; I believe that the teachings of Christ are very revolutionary and completely coincide with the aims of socialists, of Marxist-Leninists.”
Self-critically, he admitted that, “There are many doctrinaire Marxists. I think that being doctrinaire on this matter complicates the issue. I believe that both you and we should think about the kingdom of this world and avoid conflicts over matters related to the kingdom of the next world. There are still some doctrinaires around, and it’s not easy for us, but our relations with the church are gradually improving, in spite of many factors, such as this principle of antagonism. Of course, we’ve gone from a state of antagonism to one of absolutely normal relations. In Cuba, no churches are closed, and we’ve even suggested cooperating with the churches — in terms of materials, construction, and resources — that is, giving the churches material cooperation, just as we do with other social institutions. Our country doesn’t have to become a model of what I was saying, but everything seems to indicate that it will. This is even more the case in Nicaragua and El Salvador. Thus, the things I’ve said are beginning to be implemented in practice and historic reality. I think the churches will be much more influential in those countries than they were in Cuba, because the churches have been very important factors in the struggle for the people’s liberation, national independence, and social justice.”
Before leaving, the Cuban leader invited me to visit his country. I was able to do so for the first time in September 1981, as a member of the large Brazilian delegation that attended the first Meeting of Intellectuals for the Sovereignty of the Peoples of Our America. Apart from the meeting, the Americas Study Center and what is now the Office of Religious Affairs, headed by Dr. Carneado, invited me to give a series of talks on religion and the church in Latin America. Before I left Cuba, they proposed that I return to continue the dialogue that had been begun. I had the impression that, in connection with theological and pastoral matters, both the Cuban Communist Party and the Catholic church were still influenced by the conflicts that had arisen between them at the beginning of the revolution and, as a result, were kept from having a more open vision — one more in keeping with the great advances that the Latin American church had made since the Second Vatican Council (1963–65). I said I would be glad to accept the invitation if I would be able to serve the Cuban Catholic community as well. There was no opposition, and I attended the meeting of the Cuban Bishops’ Conference at El Cobre in February 1983 as a special guest. It was held at the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Charity, the national patron saint, and the bishops supported my pastoral activity in the country.
When I gave editor Caio Graco Prado the manuscript of my book Qui son las comunidades eclesiales de base? (What are the Christian base communities?), which was published by the Primeros Pasos collection, and told him about my trips to Cuba, he suggested the idea of an interview with Fidel Castro on religious topics.
Between September 1981 and this interview, I’ve been to the island 12 times, thanks to the support of Canadian — and later, German — Catholics, who gave me the tickets, except for the times I came to attend some cultural event sponsored by the Cuban government. On one of those trips, I drew up a draft for the interview and the book but got no reply.
In February 1985, I returned as a member of the jury of the Casa de las Américas Literary Awards Contest. I was then invited to a private audience with Fidel Castro. It was the first time we talked in Cuba. Once again, we took up the subject we’d discussed in Managua, enriched by the discussion about liberation theology. The interest that this awakened in the Cuban leader led us to continue the dialogue during the next few days. We devoted nine hours to the religious question in Cuba and the rest of Latin America. I took up my plan for an interview again, and he accepted it for a later date. Editor Caio Graco Prado spared no efforts or resources to see it carried through. I returned to the island in May. Comandante Fidel Castro and I spent 23 hours talking about religion, the transcript of which follows below. I would like to express my special thanks to Chomi Miyar for his invaluable cooperation in recording and transcribing the tapes and to Minister of Culture Armando Hart, who encouraged the dialogue.
Frei Betto
Havana, May 29, 1985
Chadli Bendjedid, president of Algeria, arrived in Cuba on an official visit. That same night Fidel Castro gave a reception for him at the Palace of the Revolution. The guests included a small group of Brazilians who had arrived on the island the day before: journalist Joelmir Beting; Antonio Carlos Vieira Christo, my father; Maria Stella Libanio Christo, my mother; and I. It was the first time the others had ever been in Cuba.